Interview: Brad Raider
I’ve been virtual acquaintances with Brad Raider since late 2017, when I did a very ridiculous piece for my old website about how the cast of the short-lived ABC sitcom The Trouble with Normal—in which Brad co-starred with Paget Brewster, Jon Cryer, Larry Joe Campbell, and David Krumholtz—decided to try and increase the hype on their poorly-rated series by doing an interview naked. It didn’t help, sadly, but it made for a fun little read—one that I recently added here as a Rescued from the Archives selection—and it led to Brad and I staying in touch off and on through social media.
After he and I traded messages in the wake of my interviewing another of our mutual acquaintances, Lee Shallat Chemel, Brad and I hopped on the phone for a casual conversation about his feature-length directorial debut, Kensho at the Bedfellow, which in turn led to my offering to do a proper interview with him about the film as well as some other items from his back catalog. He kindly took me up on that offer, and after working out the scheduling, we hopped on the phone again, this time on the record, to discuss the aforementioned film, his theater work with James Roday Rodriguez, the TV movie Spring Break Lawyer, and—you guessed it—The Trouble with Normal.
Fair warning: this is gonna be a two-parter, but it’s an entertaining one, and while you’re waiting for part two to debut, I hope you’ll be inspired to check out Kensho at the Bedfellow, which is currently streaming on FreeVee, the Roku Channel, and Tubi.
Well, I guess the obligatory question about Kensho and the Bedfellow—and given that you wrote and directed the film as well as starred in it, you would certainly be the one to ask!—is how it came to pass in the first place.
Yeah, let's dive in! You know, there were a couple of different tracks that were being followed in my brain, so there are a couple of different origin stories, one of which is my relationship with my sister and, really, the relationship I have with my whole family, which is very close. But at some point in college, we were doing some acting exercise, and I found a real reservoir of emotional resonance when I thought about my sister, especially as she had experimented with drugs in her teenage years. That kind of got me thinking about what would've happened if I had lost her to drugs. So that relationship was always really the heart of the movie, and this guy who did lose his sister, and the extreme of how he dealt—or didn't deal—with that loss. That became very interesting to me.
Of course, my journey into exploring spirituality and meditation and consciousness expansion and the nature of fulfillment, the nature of freedom... All of that kind of started with my meditation journey in 2005, when I learned to meditate, which at the time was a little unusual. Now, of course, everyone has a practice. [Laughs.] But back then, people were still kind of raising an eyebrow when I described what I was doing for 20 minutes sitting comfortably in a chair! But in retrospect, I had always been very interested in the deeper layers of awareness and that kind of unity that one can experience through different practices, many of which are quite ancient, as we've come to learn.
The other thread, of course, inspired in no small part by my mom, was a trip to Africa - also around 2005, 2006 - when she was doing work there, and I started becoming very interested in the UNHCR and their efforts with refugees. And when I started writing the character of Kate, how I could potentially compare and contrast her spiritual journey with that of an artist and kind of look and ask, "Well, are both kind of equally weighted in the world? Is art just as important as being on the ground and helping people escape atrocity?" And at some point during the writing process, the UNHCR became the International Rescue Committee, which was much more suited to what I needed Kate to be doing. So that was kind of a wonderful partnership in and of itself, being associated with and working with the IRC, who are now in the news again with the Ukraine crisis.
So there were a lot of things that I was interested in that all kind of coalesced and, at first, admittedly seemed kind of disparate and not connected at all. The challenge, really, was trying to make it into a cohesive narrative.
I will say that, to look at it, I would never have guessed how much it cost to make the film. What you were able to accomplish with only $200,000 is genuinely astonishing.
Oh, cool!
It's a beautiful film, both in how it looks and beyond.
Well, you can attribute that to my terrific cinematographer, David Rodriguez, as well as a guy named James Honaker, who I always want to give credit to. He was my colorist, and I spent a good chunk of time with him really fine-tuning the color grade, which I knew was very important. You know, we were limited in terms of our lightning package and never really had as much as we would've preferred, but we kind of talked extensively about the look of the film and how to really capture New York in a certain way. So it was a great combination of David, his grip and electric team, and then James Honaker on the back end. And, you know, production value really is part and parcel not only of the photography and cinematography but also your locations and art design and wardrobe. All of that really played a part. And from a budget point of view, we never could have afforded all of those locations had we paid for them. [Laughs.] Or most of them.
I was actually going to ask how much guerilla filmmaking was involved, in terms of grabbing shots on the fly.
Yeah, you know, there definitely were plenty of those. Out of naivete, really, and hubris, I wrote in about 33 locations, which is really unheard of for a movie that cost a quarter of a million dollars. I mean, at that budget level, typically people will just have one or two locations! Some of the shots that were mostly in montages - we have a couple of different montages in the film - those were definitely "stolen." [Laughs.] Or let's say "borrowed."
Mostly it’s because it was often just me and Dave, my D.P., and Kaley [Ronayne], my costar, and there wasn't any sound, and we could just pick off shots. Also, one of my favorite shots in the film is a slo-mo shot of me and Steven Klein in a 7-Eleven, chugging Red Bull. That, of course, we were able to get on the fly. And we found oftentimes nobody really bothered us when we just kind of pulled out the red camera and just picked off a couple of shots. But all of the street work and the work in parks, those were all permitted, which - if you do your due diligence and you have a good line producer and production team and production manager - those permits are fairly easy to get. In Central Park and some of the other parks, it was just a matter of doing the proper paperwork.
But some of the bigger locations, like the Rubin Museum and the International Rescue Committee headquarters and people's apartments, those were all donated. And we really were fortunate that our allies on the project - cast and crew and folks who helped with locations and donated their time - really responded to the material, which I don't know if we would've gotten had the genre or script been different, if it had been some other type of film. I think people really kind of resonated with what the movie was about and what it was trying to say.
A lot of folks from the meditation committee itself stepped up. You know, the guy who had created the High Line gave us the High Line for a day, due in no small part to him being a meditator. And now he's a meditation teacher, as am I. The director of the Rubin Museum is also in the meditation community. I was so grateful to be able to leverage that community. It all became kind of meta, in that I was inspired by ideas of consciousness, I was working with other people in that community, and of course the content itself in the film is "existential" or spiritual. So all of that kind of coalesced in getting a production value that really seems greater than the resources we had at hand.
As far as your co-stars go, I must say that, as a Twin Peaks fan, not only was I thrilled to see Dana Ashbrook in general, but to see him playing a bad boy very much in the old-school Bobby Briggs mode.
Totally. [Laughs.] Dana's terrific. And he's an old friend. We had done a play together and had stayed in touch, and I was just so thrilled when he wanted to be a part of this.
And as a Law & Order: Criminal intent fan, I was happy to see Kathryn Erbe in the mix, too.
Katy Erbe is amazing and an incredible person and film and TV actress, and she's also a Broadway luminary. Katy I had actually met teaching her meditation, and this was at some point in the spring or summer before we shot, and I told her what I was up to outside of the meditation room. [Laughs.] And she was intrigued enough to read the script and responded to it, and she was great on set, and we've remained close over the years.
You mentioned Kaley a moment ago. I thought she was great. Very empathetic.
Yeah, I'm glad to hear that. I thought so, too. It was really one of those experiences that you hear about where an actor walks in the room and...it may not have been immediate, but it was very, very clear very quickly that she was my first choice. It really felt like she had just walked off the page of what I had written and what I had in mind. You know, sometimes actors will surprise you. Someone will come in and read for a role, and you might think, "Oh, wow, I never would've considered this person or this type for what was on the page..." But in the case of Kaley, she was just a dead ringer for what I had in my imagination.
And she'd certainly done some work before Kensho, but this was her first feature, and I always knew that she was going to go on to do great things, which she has in the subsequent years. She just finished up a terrific arc on The Resident, and before that she was on The Right Stuff, the Disney+ miniseries. She's just really taken off...and she's not by any means done. [Laughs.] We're gonna see some great things from Kaley, I'm sure of that.
As you said, there were personal aspects to the film. Did you walk away from it feeling as though you'd had any sort of catharsis?
Yeah, although I guess it was more of an artistic catharsis. You know, spiritually and I guess emotionally, in my exploration of these very esoteric ideas that I tried to make more accessible, they were all drawn from experiences I've had throughout my life. In fact, the character of Kate that Kaley plays, her description of an awakening moment she had with Dan's little sister when they were kids, that was an experience that I had at camp with my best friend that I drew upon. And we didn't really have a context for what that was, that kind of unity experience or expansion experience or kensho experience. As Darpak says in the movie, there are many different names in different traditions for what that is.
But to answer your question, making the film itself was, I think, an artistic catharsis of sorts. I had never directed a feature before, and you really have to take a leap, especially something that big for your first outing. It's really an incredible experience, because you're not doing it alone by any means, but the ideas have come from your head, and the immense, immense collaborative effort and having a hundred people to communicate your vision and the tone to... Being able to articulate all that really is a good part of the job of being a director. So I think that was kind of a cathartic experience, to be able to go through that with my colleagues and all of my partners. And now to look back on it and marvel at what we were able to accomplish...and, really, what any production or big piece of art or any collaborative effort of that kind can do. It's really amazing what we can do collaboratively and creatively.
It was a great accomplishment that you were able to keep Dan consistently likeable throughout the film...mostly. Except for a few moments where you kind of can't help but saying, "Oh, my God, he's terrible!" There are definitely a couple of occasions where you're walking a tightrope.
[Laughs.] Yeah, I agree. My challenge, really, was to give him an arc to grow, and knowing that the theme of this was freedom and unity, something that I wanted him to experience not only within his own nervous system but also with the other characters in the film, reconciling with his father and his friends and learning to love again and how to cope with loss. I really had to make his state of mind and his behavior and his choices at the beginning of the film really challenging. We see a lot of anti-heroes, especially lately on TV. People that we're rooting for in the sense that we want to watch their journey. They might not be "likeable," but they're always interesting, and that's what keeps us tuning in to people who maybe behave in despicable ways.
Dan was never as bad as some of the anti-heroes we see. He's just confused and lost and nihilistic, as he puts it, and doesn't make good decisions and is not very healthy in mind and body and...all the rest! [Laughs.] But I knew that revealing fairly soon, if not overtly, that he had experienced this loss that was still haunting him, the hope was that that would buy him some sympathy from the audience. But I'm glad that you felt that way. That's important to me. It was a tightrope act, to be sure!
Oh, and before we jump to other topics, I just wanted to offer specific praise of your use of the Doves' "Pounding" to close out the film. I’ve loved that song since the initial release of their album The Last Broadcast, and it always strikes an emotional note with me whenever I hear it, so you can imagine that I found it effective as a way of wrapping everything up in a hopefully-happily-ever-after moment.
I'm so glad you asked about the Doves. I’ve been a fan of film scores and movie soundtracks for as long as I can remember, and I knew that music was going to play a very big part of Kensho, and...I had a wish list of needle drops, many of which we were lucky enough to get into the movie due in no small part to the work of my amazing music supervisor and friend, Mark Weinbach. He was able to get "Pounding" by the Doves as well as "Alone at Night" by a band called Psychic Rites, "Just Kids" by the band Goodbye Heart... That's the track during the title sequence.
There’s also an amazing track by Ravens and Chimes called "This is Where We Are," and that incredible track from Koyaanisqatsi by Philip Glass called "Pruit Igoe," which was a real coup. Again, it was Mark who was able to make all that happen. And there were a couple of last-minute switch-ups when we couldn't afford a track, but for the most part, I really had my dream cue sheet in the movie.
And all of that was complimented by my composer, Aaron Gilhuis, who I worked with for many, many months, and he just kind of nailed that '80s synth yet very emotional score, complete with themes for the characters and different motifs that returned throughout the film. So all of this is to say that I am a huge fan—and have been—of the Doves for a long time, and it was really just one piece of a massive effort to have a score and soundtrack for Kensho that really completes the experience for viewers. Sound and sound design and music are 50% of the movie. And I would be remiss, of course, if I didn't mention the work of Odin Benitez, who was my supervising sound editor, who—with his team—did just a fantastic job mixing it all together.
That was a very long-winded answer. [Laughs.] But I'm so glad you asked that question!
All right, I want to ask you about a few projects from your back catalog.
Oh, yeah, of course! The old catalog...
And you know I'm going to ask you about The Trouble with Normal, if only because you and I have so many mutual acquaintances who were part of that show...
True!
How was the general experience of doing that show?
It was the time of my life. It was my first real big break in this industry, and there's been many, many ups and downs. Just as a little sidebar back to your very first question, another big catalyst for making Kensho was because TV work had slowed down and I wasn't having the same kind of activity that I had in the beginning of my career, which happens when some of these shows don't last for longer than a couple of weeks. The Trouble with Normal was certainly one of those shows. Even though we shot 13 episodes, they only aired five. And my second big series (2002's That Was Then), we shot seven or eight, and they only aired two! [Laughs.]
And, you know, you're only as good as your last big show or feature, as they say, and there were several years in a row where either the pilots I did didn't get picked up, or the ones that did get picked up were canceled very quickly. So you kind of get lower and lower on the list of people who will be given those opportunities. And not even to be cast... I think what a lot of people outside the industry don't realize is that while everything is really difficult about this business, as an actor, especially for these bigger television and film projects, you're kind of relying on getting a shot in the first place. In other words, getting appointments, getting auditions. And in my experience—I know this is not everyone's experience—that really has been the most difficult journey: not even getting in the room.
So when you're not even getting those opportunities, that's really when it started to dawn on me, "Okay, I can't sit around and wait for auditions. I am capable of creating opportunities to work outside of that process." So that was yet another reason to kind of write this film: for myself to work in and on, but also to make it about things that were interesting and that I hoped would be interesting to others.
But The Trouble with Normal was really one of those crazy lucky stories that you also hear about in the industry. I had just moved from New York...and not even permanently! I was sleeping on the couch of James Roday—now James Roday Rodriguez—because he had really encouraged me to come out and try my hand at pilot season, because he had had some luck with pilots. And I was working with a manager at the time who was very good at picking up the phone and getting me appointments. The thing with The Trouble with Normal—or, as it was called at the time, People Who Fear People—was that they were replacing an actor and they were really looking for a guy with kind of a New York vibe in his twenties.
I had just finished a production of Henry V in New York, which was also something that I'd produced myself, but Casting didn't necessarily know that. And God bless her, this manager said, "Look, this guy is right out of school, and he just starred in Henry V in New York, he's in L.A., he's only been here a week..." And that was enough to get me the audition, to get me in the room. And before I knew it, there were callbacks or producer sessions, and I was in the running and ready to do the testing process, which first goes to the studio and then to the network. And it was down to the wire with other actors who were much more experienced than I, at least in terms of pilots or series, but it was just the right fit.
In shooting the thing, I was really lucky to be working first and foremost with Victor Fresco, who is incredibly prolific but also a kind and creative and funny and collaborative showrunner. I think the world of Victor, and he's cast me several times in subsequent years, but what an incredible first showrunner/actor relationship to have. And then, of course, Andy Ackerman directed the pilot, and my co-stars, Paget Brewster, Jon Cryer, David Krumholtz, and Larry Joe Campbell. Jon Hamm was actually in the pilot!
So I was surrounded by incredibly talented people who made it very intuitive and easy. The nature of multicamera sitcom… It felt a lot like the theater I was used to, because it was a live audience. But even though there were all these elements that felt familiar, it was completely new. I had done one episode of Spin City in New York, and that was really my first job in television, so I had been on a set of that kind, but I was thrown into the fire and thankfully felt relatively prepared. And by episodes two, three, and four, we were just a well-oiled machine, and we just really had a blast.
And, of course, our mutual friend Lee Shallat Chemel was there for much of that, and it was another very lucky experience to have her guide us. And as you know, she also directed me in a feature (Greener Mountains), and we've remained close friends.
Of course, I'm obliged to mention that Jim Beaver also played a recurring character on the show, and Jonathan Banks popped up in two episodes, too.
Yeah! They really had an incredible guest cast. Of course, I see Jonathan and Jim everywhere, and there's a lot of familiar faces if you go back and watch some of those episodes, which are on the internet. Someone was enterprising enough to take the old VHS tapes and digitize them. [Laughs.] So, yeah, it was a really terrific experience that I'm very grateful for. So if you talk to Jim or Paget or any of them, tell them I said "hello." I'd love to reconnect. David and I exchanged texts not too long ago, and I haven't seen... Well, I totally geeked out when I found out that Jon Cryer was going to be playing Lex Luthor! And Larry and I were in touch for a little while.
Of course, with social media, we all follow one another. But I'd love to reconnect with all of them. Victor and Lee I've seen the most recently. As I've been directing and kind of had questions about television directing, Lee was kind enough to invite me over to her house, and we kind of talked about episodic television directing, which I've come to learn is just as hard to break into as television acting. [Laughs.] But it was a good excuse to see her. And Victor, of course, I last saw when I was shooting Santa Clarita Diet.
Which was an underrated show, I thought.
Yeah, it's so clever. Again, the genius of Victor and his very irreverent and clever humor.
You had me at “Pounding.”