Interview: Bruce McGill (Pt. 2)

WARNING: If you haven’t yet read Pt. 1 of this piece, then you’re going to want to do that. I’m not saying you can’t read Pt. 2 first, but you’re only ruining the experience for yourself.

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Before we step completely away from discussing Delta House, just regarding your "D-Daying around" during those days, it couldn't have hurt that Michelle Pfeiffer was in the cast of that show.

No, that's what was wrong with me: I was cross-eyed in love. Oh, she was a beauty... I loved her. She was great. That was early in her career, one of her first experiences. She had been a checker at Von’s in Orange County. But there was no Bombshell in the feature. That was her character’s name: Bombshell.

Jamie Widdoes - who played Hoover and went on to become a very busy multi-cam director, which he still is - his joke would be, "Okay, so this shot opens on Bombshell's ass, widens out to reveal the Deltas." [Laughs.] They were being insensitive, I think, in a lot of the ways they shot her. But she was a beautiful girl, and she still is a beautiful woman. And I liked her, too. She was fun! 

Someone asked, "Is the senior village security director you play in Poms meant to be the sheriff from My Cousin Vinny in semi-retirement, and if not, can I pretend it is?"

[Laughs.] Okay, go ahead. Whatever! Poms... We shot it in Atlanta, and it was a very similar outfit and character to the one in My Cousin Vinny. Older and fatter! I liked that movie. It was kind of a fun movie, Poms. But My Cousin Vinny...

I mean, I'm sure you can imagine how many times people have said, "What's your favorite movie?" And I say, "My favorite movie as an audience member or my favorite movie I've done?" "No, no, what's your favorite movie you've done?" And I go, "It's a cliche, like answering, 'Who's your favorite kid?" But I have a handful of 'em, and My Cousin Vinny is always one of 'em, and Animal House is always one, as are Lincoln and Matchstick Men. Oh, and The Legend of Bagger Vance!

Legend of Bagger Vance, I think, was a good movie, but mostly just to get to play that character was a gas. Oh, and there's another problem blonde: Charlize Theron. How do you stand all day with her? [Laughs.] I love her. I do! She's another one that's just great. And she was not a huge international star yet when that movie was being made, so she wasn't as sure-footed as she is now, but I really liked her. And she's always beautiful, but in that period, she was just stunning. Amongst all of those regular people, to have a Charlize Theron walk around... You couldn't help but hear music in your ear when you'd see her. Or I couldn't, anyway! But she was a gas, too.

How was the experience of working with John Frankenheimer on Path to War? 

It was great. What a tough guy, and what a great guy. Oh, and I can tell a story there! He and Donald Sutherland were not really seeing eye to eye, and I don't know whether it was on the character of Clifford that Donald was playing, but Donald - The Donald, I called him - he's very... [Hesitates.] "Full of himself" is not the right exact term, but he can be a bit of a prima-donna, I guess, or whatever the male version of a prima-donna is, so he was just butting heads with Frankenheimer.

And I'd admired Frankenheimer's work before I met him, and then I got there and started working with him, and I was just really impressed. He was just so sure-footed. He'd done a lot of live TV and really knew what he was doing. And was tough! He was a tough, hard worker. And he knew it was gonna be hard work, and he told us in advance, "Get your sleep, 'cause I'm gonna kill you with coverage around this conference room!" And once you've done a few conference room movies, you know that, in a full-budget show, the coverage around that table to get everybody is just gonna go on and on and on. And you know, you can't do it with that many cameras, because you'd see the cameras! The maximum is, like, three cameras that you can shoot that stuff with. 

But anyway, we're shooting this big scene around the conference room table, and Donald is telling me why Frankenheimer is wrong, and...telling me what to do with my character has never flown with me. I'll take anybody's input, but at the end of the day, I'm going to do what I and my director have agreed on. So I do the scene, and Frankenheimer comes in, and he kneels down on one knee next to me and talks about the specifics of how we were going to play the scene, and as he left, he said, "Do we understand each other, Bruce?" I said, "Yessir."

Then Donald told me how I should do it for the next take, with Frankenheimer's words still ringing in my ear. And I was polite, and I listened to Donald, because I'd admired his career for a long time, and then I did the scene, but I did it exactly as I'd agreed with my director to do it. And after "cut," Donald leaned in and said, "See, wasn't that much better?" [Cackles.] And I said, "Oh, yes, I see now..." I'm not gonna butt heads with anybody when it makes no sense to. For all he knew, I did it the way he wanted me to do it. But I did it exactly the way Frankenheimer wanted me to do it. It's an interesting subjective reality.

Oh, and another story from that one. I'd just done The Insider, and Frankenheimer had seen me in it and really wanted me in his movie, so he was predisposed to liking my work. But we were doing a scene where I'm drunk at a cocktail party, and I light into Alec Baldwin, who's playing McNamara. And we were shooting and shooting, and we were shooting daytime exterior, and we literally had no time. The sun was going down. And it was my coverage. And I had the most words in the scene. And it was one of my favorite chunks of the movie of my character. So I did it and, as they say, nailed it. And I'll never forget it - I can still hear it, I can still see him - Frankenheimer says, "Cut! Print! Wrap! Great! I don't know what they're paying you, but it's not enough!" I only had time for one take, and it was spot-on, exactly what we were looking for. And Alec talked about it later and said, "God, I just feel like I'm on a tennis court, and this guy is firing aces at me left and right, just lacerating me!"

You know, sometimes when you're playing a character that's at odds with the other central characters, like George Ball was with all the cabinet, really, it's fun to be a little drunk, so you completely forget your decorum - as a character, not as an actor - and you get to light into them and say what you really think. And I had just walked away from a confrontation with Sutherland where he's telling me the party line, and I've got a cocktail in my hand, and I go, "Oh, Christ, Clark!" Like, just too disgusted to even say another word. And then I walk right out into the garden and have this scene with Alec. It was very satisfying. And because there was no time left, I don't know what would've happened if we didn't get it, because we didn't have that location the next day! I think it was an HBO film, so it wasn't like all the money in the world. So it just was the best moment to deliver for a director that you admire and have him vociferously pronounce it in front of everybody. It was just great. It feels good. And you go back to your trailer, and you go, "Yep, that was a good day's work. Feels good."

And he wrote me the most wonderful letter, too, that I kept, and I have it somewhere. I think my mother framed a copy of it. But it said, "Yesterday was one of the three best days I've ever had filming. One was with Gary Sinese on Wallace, and the other was with..." I don't know, maybe Fredric March in Seven Days in May? Something just high, high cotton. But he took the time to send the letter...and the letter was hand-delivered! It was not posted. He had someone deliver it to me. It meant a lot. It was great. He was just great. He was so good. And he wasn't drinking anymore.

I worked with his daughter later - in fact, I think she was a production manager or something on My Cousin Vinny, or some movie I did in Georgia - and he had a drinking problem, so it can't have been much fun for her as a kid, because...I think she'd sort of made her peace with it. But when I worked with him, he was just great. I saw none of that. I mean, I didn't socialize with him, I just saw him at work. But I was pleased to get the job, pleased to do the job, and pleased that he was so pleased. Because, you know, that lasts way after whatever money you got paid is gone.

I guess that is what a career is: it's made up of those moments. You're lucky if you make a living, and you're double lucky if you were scared enough about not making a living that you began to make secure and safe investments early on, because then there's less pressure financially to do the jobs, and it becomes, "Which job interests you?" But, of course, that's out the window here in Toronto: they bought me! [Laughs.] I mean, it's a delicious role. But they bought me.

Well, the first step is admitting it.

Oh, I'm used to reassessing where our business is and wondering, "Where do I proceed from here?" I knew years ago that I needed to get into business with the big streamers. What I was thinking then was Netflix, because Amazon hadn't really become a streamer yet, but now I want to be in business with Netflix and Amazon, and maybe Apple TV+ and Hulu, I dunno. But once you're in the streaming business with Netflix - I've done two or three now with Netflix - and Amazon, then you can relax on that, because you have those relationships. And I know they know who I am at Netflix...or some of 'em do, anyway! And now they will at Amazon.

I don't have to shoot much on this Jack Reacher part, but it's a character that'll pop, and they need a solid actor to play this. I've said this from the very get-go to Nick Santora, the show runner: "I know what this character needs to accomplish, and there's not a whole lot of screen time to do it with." And he said something to the effect of, "Yep, that's why I needed you." [Laughs.] Everybody has an ego, and most actors have more of an ego than most regular folks. Actors and salesmen, same thing. So the smarter ones know how to tell you what they know you want to hear without letting you know that they're telling you what they know you want to hear.

But Nick got me here, and I really enjoy him. He's a really good writer, a good guy, and very responsive to input. But he's not here. It's all remote. He's in L.A.! He's doing a series with Schwarzenegger, and another series, too! I said, "What's with you, man?" He said, "Hey, especially with writers in Hollywood, there's ageism! I came up poor, and I don't ever want to be poor again." I said, "Well, geez, I sure look forward to meeting you!" What they do is, they hold up a cell phone before we shoot a scene, and there's his little head in it, so at least we can communicate!

I mean, things are different. I did something during the depth of the pandemic associated with The Crew, which is a multi-camera I did with Kevin James, and they would have all of the Netflix brass that was involved with the show on this little... They called it R2-D2, but it was this sophisticated camera that would roll around from set to set, and it was hard-wired, and they were watching in L.A., and we were shooting in Bethpage, Long  Island, and they were watching it in real time through R2-D2 and a hookup.

And I did this thing associated with it - a mockumentary, they called it - about my character, Bobby Spencer, who... I loved playing Bobby Spencer, I wish it had gone. But the director was in L.A., I was in San Antonio, Texas, and they said, "Look, we know you don't want to travel during the pandemic, so we'll shoot it where you are. We'll send a skeleton crew." So I sat there in front of the cameras, and she was on a laptop they put close to the camera to keep the eyeline kind of right, and she directed and read the offscreen lines that way...and she was 1,500 miles away! So things are different, but things are the same. It's all storytelling. And over the years, whenever I've gotten nervous about it, I've always comforted myself by boiling it down to the simple fact that, for whatever reason, the human animal craves stories and wants to be told stories...and certain animals are better at telling stories than other animals. 

Well, when it comes to stories, as you know by now, that's pretty much why I do what I do. I enjoy hearing people tell me stories, and then I enjoy sharing those stories with other people.

And you've developed the skills that it takes. I mean, you had the chops for it in the beginning, anyway. I think anybody that gets far enough along in one of these - as a dear, departed friend of mine used to say - living-by-your-wits professions, you've got to have some talent in the beginning, but because you do, you're motivated enough to develop it, because there's a lot of craft involved. I was going to say that there's more craft involved in what you do than in what I do, but it's the same sort of thing. Choices, decisions, training the instruments... It's very much the same. All of the performing arts - and I consider writing a performing art, although I guess it's not strictly so - but you can say something many ways, or you can edit it many ways, and how you do it is what makes your individual singular voice.

You know, I love playing the guitar, and a lot of people told me, "What are you doing being an actor? You should be a guitar player!" But I thought, "Nah, that's quantifiable. If you hit a bum note..." Besides, there's too many guys who can play the guitar. If you're an actor, it's sort of subjective. People look at it, and they don't know how else you might've done it, they just see it and either they like it or don't like it. Same with athletes: it's a performance, but if you're playing basketball, for instance, you have to throw that ball through the hoop, and everybody can see if that ball went up and if it went through the hoop. If you're an actor, who's to say where the hoop is and how big the ball is? You're impossible to specifically quantify. All it is is, "Did it tell the story, and did I like watching it?" And I just think that's such freedom and leeway, and...it keeps me from being too nervous, I guess. Not that I have much nervousness about it anymore! But there's still a kind of excitement.

The older you get, the harder it is to learn lines. I'm not gonna lie. But on this one, I have tons of time to learn 'em, and I love working when I know my lines so well that I don't have to think about, "Do I know my lines?" People ask, "Do you learn it word for word?" Well, yeah, unless I don't like the word, and then I call the showrunner, in this case, and literally I've added two words here or changed a word there, because I tried it his way and I just think I've got something better. And no matter how careful a writer is, in most cases, you'll be much more familiar with your guy than the writer is, and certainly more than the director is, because they've got so much to think about. And all you really have to think about is your character and how it fits into the whole story. So I say, "Yeah, I learn it word for word." Because every word is like a bullet. It's my ammunition...and I've never been one to waste ammunition! And if it's a bad bullet, I'll see if I can change it out. If there's time to do it.

I mean, sometimes you just don't have time to do it. If your line load is huge, like the guy playing Jack Reacher. I don't think he has time to do that. But I've got the time to do that, and then the challenge becomes making sure it doesn't sound pat or rote. It should sound like it just occurred to you and it's the only thing your guy could've said at that time. And that's advanced acting, I think. It's what you get within the theater. You get a good stage actor, you know they've rehearsed that. Even if you're doing a Shakespeare play, that shit's been written for 400 years, and yet you try and make it sound like it's just occurred to your guy and it's the best thing he could've said at that time. And although that language is a little lofty by current vernacular, it's still what you strive for. And in these behavioral dramas, even though my guy's got a thick Southern accent and he's not me at all... I had one of the directors say, "That dialogue fits you so well..." And then he stopped and said, "Or maybe that's what a great actor does." And I said, "Maybe that is." [Laughs.]

There's all kinds of interesting, unintended compliments you get if you're really prepared. You get a lot of actors who, for whatever reason, can't learn lines or they don't work hard enough or whatever, so just the fact that you know your stuff really well makes you an 8 out of 10 on everybody's scale, because it's hard to do, and these shows... They're working long hours anyway, and if the guy doesn't know his lines, my God, it's just depressing! You have to shoot it over and over. I mean, it's one thing if you're shooting over and over because you're trying to get at something, like Michael Mann does. That's different. But if you're shooting it over and over because the actor doesn't know his lines... Oh, God, that's just soul-killing for the whole crew. And the other actors, too. And it's also embarrassing! If it's a guy who just can't learn it, which I guess some of that exists... I might say he should be in another business. But if it's a guy that just doesn't do the work because he thinks he's so fascinating that just whatever he says will be fine... That's just despicable. And hard to respect.

I swear to God, I had this locked and loaded before you made that comment, but...someone wanted me to ask you about working with Steven Seagal on Exit Wounds.

You know what? I don't like to trash people, so I won't. Enough said.

Well, okay, then.

I mean, I would say that was a man of low character.

Is that on the record? I don't have to put it on the record.

Well, you know, he could probably kick my ass. But he's old too now, and I might give him a run for his money! He just... He would blame other people. He had sycophants around him that he didn't treat well, and the one thing I can't abide - especially if you're the grand poobah, as he was - if you point your finger and blame other people for your shortcomings, it's another thing that I just find almost beneath contempt. He was never ugly to me or anything like that, but I just...wasn't impressed with the way that he was. You know, he was late to work and stuff like that, and I really hate that. I just hate it. If you're really, really great and fabulous, and they're working you too hard and it's a statement, that's one thing. But if you just think you're above it all and you treat your own people badly, I just think that's yucky. Enough said.

Okay, I'm just going to read you this story real quick from an interview I did with Tom Arnold where we talked about that film. 

Oh, yeah? [Suddenly bursts into raucous laughter.] 

Based on that laughter, maybe you already know this story, but...

Here's my Steven Seagal story. The director, Andrzej Bartkowiak, a very nice guy, he likes to shoot with six cameras at once. He's a great action director. He was a great cinematographer before that. But Steven Seagal doesn't like to rehearse. So we're on a houseboat, and there's a door on one end, and there's a door on the other end, because sometimes the houseboat is coming in from this direction, sometimes it's coming from that direction, but however you pull up from the dock, you want to be able to get off, so there's a door on each side. 

Anyway, Steven Seagal's sitting here, me and Anthony Anderson are sitting there, and the director comes in and says, "Please walk through this scene one time." And Steven Seagal proceeds to argue with him for 45 minutes about how he doesn't rehearse. The director finally gives up, and he says, "Roll cameras!" And Steven Seagal gets up from his chair, and he says... [Doing a Seagal impression.] "I'm gonna go down and kill your whole fucking family!" And then takes a step this way, toward this door. Now here's the thing: he has argued so long, he has forgotten that the other door leads to the dock, and this door leads to the ocean!

As I see Steven step towards that door, I look at Anthony Anderson, and I'm, like, "Should I tell him?" And he's, like, "No!" [Laughs.] And he takes one more step, opens the door...and disappears into the ocean. And I swear, the black sharpie ink... You could see it coming to the surface! I started trying to fish him out, but he's wet, so he's super heavy, and he's got this muumuu on, and I can't lift him out, so Anthony Anderson has to help me.   

So that's my Steven Seagal story. And it reminds me not to be an asshole, because instead of taking 20 seconds to block this scene, he argued for 45 minutes, he went out the wrong door, and he ended up in the ocean. 

I didn’t want to interrupt the flow of the story, but for the record, here were McGill’s reactions:

• Laughed at Arnold’s remark about arguing for 45 minutes rather than rehearsing

• Gasped audibly and said, “No way!” at the revelation that Seagal had forgotten which door was leading to the ocean

• Burst out laughing at Anthony Anderson saying, “No!”

• Upon hearing that Seagal had disappeared into the ocean, he said, “Oh, that’s awesome.”

I then backpedaled slightly in the story to throw in one other remark that Arnold had made a few moments prior to this anecdote: “They were going to get him a $100,000 hairpiece, but he had too much pride for that, so he literally colors his hair in with a black sharpie. And you can see it on the big screen! “

We now return you to McGill’s remarks…

Well, if it was a Sharpie, it would've been permanent! But I remember... Well, Andrzej Bartkowiak was one of my closest friends at the time, and Exit Wounds wasn't the kind of movie I was doing much, but he said [Doing a predictably solid Polish accent.] "Brucie, Brucie, come on, you got to do this movie. I know it's a genre thing, but you got to do this movie for me. I love you, I fucking love you." So I said, "Okay, I'll do it."

So I go to do it, and one day I come in and have this sort of confrontational scene - I'm an authority figure or cop or something - and Seagal is supposed to come in and sit down, and we have a disagreement or whatever. You know, a simple, two-character talking scene. Well, he's late, and he's not there, and he's not there, and Andre finally came to me and said, "Brucie, it's up to you, I know, but Steven is still not here, and you don't have to, it's up to you, but...it would go better if we shoot your side of the scene without him." And I said, "You know what? Let's do it. Forget it." So we shoot my entire scene with somebody off-camera reading Seagal's lines.

Well, Seagal finally gets there, and he sits in the chair across from me, and he's so smug and full of himself - for whatever reason, I can't imagine - and I'm looking at him...and there's this rivulet of dark ink rolling down his forehead. He's sweating into his fake hair! Sharpie wouldn't do that. He was using, like, shoe polish or some shit. Just crazy.

Anyway, I didn't know that story, but I do know that there's a double-secret probation reel that Andre put together of moments... [Starts to laugh.] Because Steven would just do absolutely asshole things on the set all the time. Just... You can't even believe it. And there's one of them - it was onto Steven, across Tom's back - and it was so bizarre what Steven did that Tom just turned around and looked into the camera with a bewildered look on his face.

Andre showed me the reel, and he said, "Bruce, you can't tell nobody. You can't tell anybody I do this." But he made it, it probably didn't take him long to edit it together, and it was, like, 10 minutes of this stuff! And Joel Silver was the producer, and I think Andre was really most concerned that Joel Silver never found out it existed. But I'm in there, and I'm laughing. My God, it was so funny. That one with Tom... I'll never forget. The look on his face, it wasn't Tom being funny, it wasn't Tom acting, it was Tom in absolute gobsmacked disbelief at what was going on with the main actor on camera. So I'm really glad to hear that story, although I'm surprised I've never heard that story. I'm amazed Andre wouldn't have told me! [Laughs.] It was just hard not to have contempt for the guy, because he seemed to have contempt for the whole process and for everybody else.

I don't know if Tom never told that story before he told it to me, but that interview... I ended up not being able to run it right after I originally conducted it, so I just kind of sat on it until I started up this Substack newsletter. And as soon as I put it online, he promptly retweeted it to all of his followers.

Oh, good. So you're in the clear. [Laughs.] Well, as I say, I'd never heard it, but it's a good one. And I see Anthony Anderson not infrequently at celebrity golf event and stuff - he's a great guy - and I can just see him responding that way: "No!" 

So can I.

Oh, man, that is delicious.

Well, I see we've hit the hour mark, so what do you say we do one more, and then maybe we can do a sequel in a week or two. I mean, since you're on lockdown anyway...

Oh, sure, sure. I'll be here!

Okay, let's go with Elizabethtown, since I just revisited it after it was re-released on Blu-ray.

Yeah. [Sighs.] God, I was so excited to work with Cameron [Crowe], and...it just never quite happened, that film. It just didn't. And that's another one where I said, "Ah, gee, no thanks." Because it wasn't much of a part. But then Cameron Crowe called me at my house - I don't know how they get your number! - and said so convincingly, "Look, I know there are potholes in this script, and a lot of them are with your character, but we'll fix that." And I just thought so highly of Cameron...and I still do! He was a very pleasant guy to work with. I really liked it. And Tom Cruise was involved [as an executive producer], and I think highly of him as well. And they bought me, too! For that role, it was a big number. I don't remember what it was, but... Eh, you know, I had friends in Louisville, too, so what the hell. [Laughs.]

So I went and did it, and I did my best, and...I wasn't there for all the stuff between Orlando and Kirsten, I wasn't there when they were shooting, so I didn't know until I saw the film that that never really gelled, that chemistry that needed to be there. And I remember being at the premiere of it and going, "Well, some work, some don't, and that one didn't work so well." And the producer, Paula Wagner, was trying to tell herself it was okay, it was gonna be fine, and I said, "Oh, Paula, look, when they're laughing up on the screen and nobody in the theater is laughing, you've got a problem." And she stopped and said, "Yeah, I guess that's right, isn't it?" And I just thought of that exchange the other day for some reason. I don't think she's ever hired me again since then. [Laughs.] But it wasn't, like, an ugly moment. She just wasn't looking at what was really going on.

And I don't know that it was just the chemistry between Kirsten and Orlando. It may just have been too autobiographical and not enough fun. You know, movies... They've got to be fun. Even Lincoln was fun! I mean, when James Spader was bribing people for votes? There was fun in that! And when I yelled at Lincoln as Stanton and he's telling a funny story? There was fun in that! It's like Shakespeare's tragedies: you've got to have the gravediggers or the porter, the comic relief, to give some shape to it. And that one just wasn't enough fun. 

It's funny that you brought up Lincoln, because someone asked very specifically, "Was it fun to yell at Daniel Day Lewis?"

Oh, yes. [Laughs.] It was great. And he loved it, too! We'd already had a really good connection in the conference scene when I had to burn the war map and I fussed at him about his kid playing with war department materials. We'd had a great connection there. He was so good to work with, because he's so great. You're working with the character, you're not working with Daniel...although Daniel is always present. He's not, like, a crazy person. He just stays in character because it saves energy. I understood it completely. And I stayed in character, too. I said, "Well, if he does it, I'll do it!" And I'd never really done it before, but I see the wisdom of it, especially when you're playing a major role.

And we would talk between takes, but we would talk current events of 1864! Because we'd both done the research. And Spielberg came up one time and said, "What are you talking about?" And right then we were talking about some specific things that we'd found in our research, and Steven said, "Oh, he likes that! He loves that!" So Steven was very protective of Daniel and his process, but that whole job was a real privilege…and for a small part, not much screen time, I got a lot out of that one! And, yes, yelling at Daniel Day Lewis was a lot of fun, because outside of Sally Field, I'm the only one who really yelled at him!