Interview: Jane Alexander
In 2020, during the height of the pandemic, I pulled off a multifaceted career high: not only did I successfully pitch a story to Smithsonian, but I successfully convinced three Oscar nominees - a director and two actors, one of which, it must be said, is the voice of Darth Vader - to do interviews with me for the piece before I’d actually managed to sell it! But, look, when the piece in question is a look back at the play and subsequent film adaptation of The Great White Hope, it was hard for either me or them to imagine that it’d be hard to find a home for it…although, let me tell you, it was insane how many outlets passed on it before Smithsonian thrilled me with an acceptance.
If you haven’t read the piece, now’s your chance, and just know that Jane Alexander, Ken Burns, and James Earl Jones, all enjoyed the resulting work. In fact, Ms. Alexander enjoyed it enough that - gasp! - she was even willing to hop back on the phone with me for a second conversation, this one less beholden to a single topic. As you can tell, it’s a casual, freewheeling affair, but what can I say? That’s how I roll. Plus, it’s a methodology that tends to result in some great stories along the way, so I think I’ll stick with it, at least here in the safe and warm confines of my own newsletter.
By the way, there’s a little bit more to this conversation that I’m saving for a second piece, mostly because Substack only allows a certain amount of space for its newsletters, but when I post it, I think I’m going to make that second part for paid subscribers only. I mean, surely a Jerry Orbach anecdote is worth at least trying the paid-subscription model, even if it’s only for a month.
Okay, here we go…
Jane Alexander: It's good to talk to you, Will! It's been awhile!
It has been! I'm very glad that we have the opportunity to do it again.
Yeah, me, too! That was a good piece you did before.
Well, thank you very much. I appreciate that. A lot of work went into it, but it was a labor of love, for sure.
Oh, yes, I know! I think James Earl [Jones]... Well, I didn't talk to him, but I know you spoke to him and quoted him, and I'm sure he was very happy.
That was my understanding from his assistant, which in turn made me very happy. Oh, while I'm thinking about it, when I put on social media that I was going to be talking to you today, one of the first people to chime in was Ross Harris, who said, "Say hello from her wayward son."
Oh, what a sweetie-pie! Rossie! Oh, my God... Wow.
You know, I actually replied, "I can hear her squealing, 'Rossie!' right now.
[Laughs.] Oh, yeah... Excuse me, I just have to put my dog up on the couch. Hold on. [Away from the speaker.] Come here! Come! He's just a funny little one. He knows he can jump up, but he wants me to put him up, so...
Oh, I am all too familiar. I've got one sitting right next to me at the moment. She's notorious for trying to get on her bed, knowing that she can do it, but all you have to do is ask, "Do you want some help?" and she'll stop dead in her tracks and stare up on you.
There you go! Exactly! Like, "Oh, you know, my arthritis..." [Laughs, then clears her throat.] Okay, here we go!
Okay, so I wanted first and foremost to talk about your work with animals and conservation. To begin with, how did you get involved with that in the first place? What led you down that path?
Well, you know, I've always lived a kind of schizophrenic life with loving nature from the time I was a very little girl and then taking up theater, which was a night profession, and having to get up early to see the birds. It really started in a big way when my husband Ed Sherin and I moved to Putnam County when the boys were little. That was about 60 miles north of New York City - we would make the commute every day: both of us were very active at the time, back in the early '70s, doing theater and film - and what I began to notice right away the next spring was that the same birds were coming back, the same animals were living there. I just said, "My God, we've inherited a place where all these creatures pre-date us by maybe millennia, but certainly many generations, so I'd better take care of them!" And that's when I really started to get into hardcore birding, because I joined a local Audubon Society chapter, and I had a mentor almost right away, an older man who taught me a lot about birds. So that's how it really started, the protection and education.
I know you're also a member of the Wildlife Conservation Society.
Yes! That happened... [Hesitates.] I didn't join the Society as a board member until much later, but I got to know Alan Rabinowitz, who was a jaguar expert. You may know this, but Ed and I had been to Belize on vacation, and I was writing a script about a zoologist who tracks jaguars in Belize. And a friend of mine at the Bronx Zoo said, "Where'd you get this story?" I said, "Well, I made it up. When we were down there, I thought I smelled big cat. It was a very large animal that I sensed and smelled, so I came up with this story." And he said, "Well, you should go visit our fellow who's tracking jaguars in Belize, Alan Rabinowitz." So I think it was just a few days later that I contacted him and hopped on a plane. And he was at his study site in Cockscomb Basin, which is maybe 90 miles from Belize City or something. But he came into Belize City just to suss me out, whether he wanted to bring me back to his study site. [Laughs.] And he had just had a plane crash, and he was grounded. He wasn't supposed to be walking. He had crashed tracking jaguars from the plane, because he'd radio-collared them, and the plane nosedived right in the middle of the jungle. He and the pilot were so lucky to walk away with nothing but... Well, he had a concussion, but... Anyway, to make a long story short, Alan and I really bonded, we became best friends, male and female, for the rest of his life. So that's when everything really revved up, because that was my first real close experience knowing a field biologist, and they became my heroes of all time. They still are to this day. They're amazing men and women.
You mentioned that you've lived kind of a schizophrenic life, which is not a surprise, having read your book. You talk about splitting your time between your loves and the various aspects of your career.
Yep!
Has it been a challenge at times to find the balance you wanted?
Oh, gosh, yes! Especially when I had a really very heavy career schedule, which was in the '70s and '80s. For about 15 years, it was kind of non-stop: theater, TV, film. But I had learned to take my binoculars with me wherever I was on location, and I really upped my birding game that way. It was mostly self-taught, because I couldn't make an appointment with a local Audubon guy or something, because invariably it would have to be canceled because of the shooting schedule. So I learned a lot that way, and once Alan got me involved with the WCS, acting on the conservation committee in the '80s, I started to know an awful lot of field biologists through there, and I started to travel to where they were and... Well, you've seen that in the book! So, yeah, it was a challenge to find that balance.
That reminds me: somewhere online I saw that you actually offered up a list of birding tips.
Oh, did I? [Giggles.]
I swear, I saw that headline somewhere.
Well, that could be. It might be from an interview some years back.
[As it turns out, it was a 2014 article in the New York Times.]
As I mentioned, I posted on social media about how I was going to be chatting with you, so people threw out requests for projects they wanted me to ask you about. Even beyond Ross saying "hi," I had several people who wanted me to ask about the experience of doing Testament.
Oh, great!
Do you recall how it came about? It was squarely in the midst of the nuclear panic of the '80s.
Yes, indeed. And it may be in the book, or maybe I didn't put it in there at all, but what happened was, I'd had this recurring nightmare about nuclear holocaust.
This was the nightmare: three of my boys and I had been out camping in Putnam County when they were fairly little guys - they were 8, 9, and 10, I think, in the dream - and we were coming back, walking back on a hot summer day, and leaflets were dropping from the sky from small planes saying, "Do Not Eat The Shellfish - Radiation Poisoning," and there were thousands of people walking north on the Taconic State Parkway, and they were all refugees from New York City, which we assumed had been bombed or something. And then the boys and I, we're trying to get back home, and we lay down against a tree and a little pond, and the boys go walking into the water, and they come out with clams, and they're very hungry, and they start to eat them...and that's the end of my dream.
Well, one of my boys, Jace, was reading Ms. Magazine. [Laughs.] I can remember that! I think he was about nine, maybe a little older, but he was reading Ms. Magazine, and he said, "Mom, have you read this story called 'The Last Testament'? Carol Amen wrote it in Ms. Magazine." I said, "No." He said, "Well, it's like your nightmare!" And the very next day, Lynne Littman called me - she was the director - and she said, "Jane, I'd like you to do this small independent film I'm doing called 'The Last Testament.'" And I was like [Stunned.] "What? I just read it!" And it was like everything came together. That was really fate. I'd already been an anti-nuclear activist, trying to reduce the number of weapons and trying to reduce the amount of nuclear power we had, because at the time it was far more dangerous than it is today. And once I did the film, I never had the nightmare again. Because I think just the doing of the film, acting it, playing those very tough scenes with Ross towards what we know is the end of our lives, I got through it.
Well, I mean, talk about cathartic.
Oh, yes.
One of your theater performances that I wanted to ask you about because the cast was so phenomenal - and I've talked to a few of your other castmates, in fact - was the production of Hamlet you did for the New York Shakespeare Festival. I mean, talk about a cast...
Oh, yes! With Sam Waterston as Hamlet. Isn't that funny? I just came across the poster! There was a very famous man [Paul Davis] who was doing the posters for that Shakespeare festival. You'd recognize the poster right away. But I just came across that poster yesterday, and it's of Sam with his mouth wide open - like, in a rage - as Hamlet. So I was just thinking about that production!
And remind me who else was in it... Oh! Maureen Amberman was in it. She played Ophelia.
She did. And I interviewed Bruce McGill, who played Osric, as well as the late John Heard, who played Gildenstern. But then there's Stephen Lang...
Oh, yes, Stephen! Of course! Oh, and who played... [Interrupts herself.] Charles Cioffi played Claudius!
He did. And then David Naughton played Francisco, Mandy Patinkin played Fortinbras...
Mandy Patinkin! Yes! Mandy was a wonderful, memorable Fortinbras, because he thought the whole play was about him. [Laughs.] It's true! I said, "Well, how can you say that?" He said, "Well, who is the one who conquers in the end and takes over? It's Fortinbras! So the play's about him!"
It's interesting that Richard Sanders was in the ensemble, who I know predominantly from [playing Les Nessman in] WKRP in Cincinnati, and Reginald van Johnson was also part of the ensemble as well as a stagehand, but he went on to do Family Matters, among other things.
My gosh...
Yes, the Internet Broadway Database has often left me with my jaw on the floor after looking someone up for an interview and seeing all of the people who appeared in various productions with them.
Yeah, I know. Of course, everyone wants to do Shakespeare, and Joe Papp was the king.
Yes, I've noticed that virtually every Joseph Papp production featured an insanely talent-packed cast.
Well, it was highly prestigious to be in a production with him. Well, not with him, but with him producing.
Given the season, I'm sure I'll be revisiting Miracle on 34th Street soon, but it'll probably be the TV version, since that's the one I grew up with.
[Laughs.] Well, I grew up with the Maureen O'Hara one.
Oh, I love that one, too, of course. But for many years, Sebastian Cabot was my Santa.
Sebastian Cabot was fabulous. I do think so. And Roddy McDowall was in it. But I just loved Maureen O'Hara as a young person, so I always loved that one best. That was a wonderful production to be a part of, though, because we really filmed when all of the balloons were being blown up at 4 a.m. on Thanksgiving. We were there, the cast, and... Gosh, that was a wonderful night, just seeing everybody getting ready to start the parade, and all these huge, huge creatures... [Laughs.] It was great.
It's one of those casts where I think I know virtually every single person from a role in some other show, from David Doyle to Tom Bosley to James Gregory. Oh, and Jim Backus, too!
And wasn't it...David Hartman?
It was. It was right before he started on Good Morning America.'
That makes sense. Is he still with us?
I don't know, but I can find out very quickly, because I have Wikipedia up on my computer...and, yes, he is! He's 86, but he's still going.
Well, good! I wonder where he's living. I haven't heard anything much about him...
I had someone who wanted me to ask you about the experience of doing Tell Me You Love Me, the short-lived but critically-acclaimed HBO series.
Yes, well, Cynthia Mort, the writer and director and I guess she was the producer, too, she had a really specific idea of what she wanted to do, and she convinced me to come onboard. I don't even remember when that series was.
It was 2007. I remember it because it was my first time attending the TCA press tour.
So almost 15 years ago! You know, I thought it was really beautifully done. She shot the sex scenes beautifully. I mean, I didn't think there was anything salacious about them or anything. Of course, she wanted David Selby to play my husband. David and I had worked together a number of times, so we were good chums, and we actually had a good time doing that piece.
Were you on the panel for the show at that TCA tour?
[Long pause.] I can't remember those things, Will.
I feel like maybe you weren't. I know Adam Scott was, though, because I interviewed him a little while after that, and he said, "That is a dry room, man."
[Laughs.] Well, I thought the show was a very honest look at sexuality and the problems of the four couples of different ages. I'm including us, although we didn't have the same kind of problems the kids had. But I was very pleased with it, and then a new regime came into HBO, and we had all been committed to the second season, and they put the kibosh on the whole season. But fortunately we'd already signed the contracts, so we all got paid anyway!
I remember watching the show, and I think my description of it at the time was that it was almost too real, that I was still only six years into my marriage, and I was looking to TV for escapism, not reality!
Oh, it was tough. It was tough to take!
A reader wanted me to ask you about working on City Heat, but they wondered in particular if you'd been on the film when they switched directors.
Oh! Well, Richard Benjamin was the director.
Yes, but apparently he was a replacement for the original director.
[With legitimate surprise.] Really? All I remember was Richard Benjamin. But I'm not sure that I came in at the beginning. I can't remember. But I'm sure that with [Burt] Reynolds and [Clint] Eastwood, it was probably a bigger and longer shoot than for some of us who... Well, anyway, I don't remember any director other than Richard Benjamin, who of course is charming. He and his wife [Paula Prentiss] were always great humorists.
They were both just on Gilbert Gottfried's podcast recently...and even more recently they celebrated their 60th wedding anniversary!
Oh, great! They're really fun. They're good people. Well, City Heat was a good show, but there was some tension, because Clint was a director, too, and I think even Burt had been a director, or if he hadn't, he'd always been a star actor. But there were very different personalities there, so... It wasn't that there were squabbles, but you could feel the tension a little bit. Or at least I could.
Well, there's a quote from Blake Edwards [the original director] where he said the experience made him write S.O.B. 2. For my part, though, I've always liked it. I actually own it on Blu-ray.
Oh, do you? I should go and look at it again, because I like those guys so much. I always have.
You and I talked about this briefly in email, but what was it like working with Edward Herrmann on Eleanor and Franklin?
Oh, my gosh. Well, that was one of the highlights of my life. Ed Herrmann was wonderful, and he and I became very good friends. In fact, he and his first wife, Leigh, bought a house very near Ed and me, so we saw quite a bit of them. And then we also did several plays together, and we did the second part of the Eleanor and Franklin series, The White House Years, and then we did The Betsy, which was also directed by Dan Petrie. Oh, yeah, Ed Herrmann was fabulous, and Dan Petrie was one of my dearest friends and a wonderful director.
There were so many wonderful people in that cast. Linda Purl and Lindsay Crouse and... Oh, gosh, we had two different fellows playing Louis Howe. Ed Flanders played him in the first one, and then Walter McGinn in the second one. It was a great, great time. IBM produced, and they really were so generous and so caring. I just loved that. I've always been very fond of when you have just one person or entity that puts in the money and then tends to devote an enormous amount of care because it's their baby. I really love that. I love it in the theater, I loved it in movies, even if it was fewer and farther between with movies.
I'll have to find and send you the audio clip I have of Ed telling a story about the other time he played FDR: for John Huston in Annie. He did such a wonderful spot-on Huston impression in the story.
[Giggles.] I know, he was so good at that. Oh, I miss him terribly... [Sighs.] He died too young. Of a brain tumor. I've had too many friends die of brain tumors!
Well, the readers have had their turn, but this is one that I wanted to ask about: you did the film A Gunfight, and I was just wondering if you had much interaction with Johnny Cash on that.
Oh, I did. I did! I've been crazy about westerns ever since I was a girl. My grandfather was Buffalo Bill's doctor in North Platte, Nebraska, and I grew up hearing stories about Cody and the Wild West show. That's where the Wild West show rehearsed - in North Platte, Nebraska - before it went global. So I grew up loving the west, and...when I got offered to do the show called A Gunfight, I said, "Oh, Kirk Douglas and Johnny Cash? Wow!" So I jumped at the chance. Now, my role wasn't very big or very significant. However, I was around a lot because I just loved to watch the guys and all the paraphernalia of westerns - guns and shooting and horse riding and all that kind of stuff - while I was hanging clothes on the prairie. [Laughs.]
But Johnny came over to me... And June Carter was there, too! Because they'd just had a new baby - John Carter Cash - who was an infant, and June would come and nurse him right on the set, watching Johnny. And I believe it was the only movie that the Jicarilla Apache tribe produced. They fully funded it, and the tribal leaders would show up on the set, and they loved the fact that Johnny Cash, who was part Indian, was in it. I think that's why they funded it. And Johnny said to me in the beginning, "You remind me so much of Bob Dylan's wife. Do you know them?" I said, "No, I don't." He said, "Well, I think that you'd love them. And she's wonderful." That was his first wife [Sara].
Johnny and June and I really hit it off, and whenever Johnny did a big tour or was working in a particular place, he would want to go to a maximum-security prison and perform for the guys. And...I'm trying to remember where it was, but it was the New Mexico Maximum Security Penitentiary, and June said to me, "Jane, you've got to come with us. These guys haven't seen any young women for sometimes years. You've just got to come with us, honey. For eye candy!"
And I said, "Oh, June, I don't know..." I mean, Will, at that time, it was the early '70s. We were wearing very, very short skirts. And because of feminism, we had taken off our bras in the name of liberation, which only stimulated a lot of the guys all I knew to have kinds of horny thoughts. [Laughs.]
But June said, "Honey, you just wear that little sweater you wore on the set the other day, that little cotton short-sleeved thing. That is so beautiful, and you just wear your little skirt and those high heels that I've seen you in, and we'll go together, and I'll be right there with you." Well, now, of course, June, who had just had a baby, she wasn't dressing so fancy. She had a long skirt on!
So Johnny's out there talking to the guys, and then he invites June out and me out, and...there must've been a couple of thousand guys there, and it was scary! Because I came out, and they went bananas. And I think I must've grabbed June's hand, because it was just, like, "Whoa!" Just to have so much focused attention and the roars and whatever. But it was only a few minutes that we stayed out there, and then of course he launched into "Folsom Prison Blues," and that was the end of it. But I'll never forget that moment!
The belle of the prison.
If just for a few minutes! [Laughs.] But June and Johnny were great. They kept in touch with me for awhile. They came to New York, and they saw a play I was in at the time called 6 RMS RIV VU, with Jerry Orbach. It was about two people - not a couple - who were looking at an apartment at the same time, and the realtor was not around, but they had either been given a key or just told, "Go on in." And I was in there walking around when he comes in and he's looking around for his wife, and then the door is shut, and we're locked in together. So we spend the night, and it becomes an adulterous affair. Well, June and Johnny came to see the show, and we had a date to go out afterwards, but they left at intermission, and I never heard from them again!
Whoops.
I found out later - I think it was from [Johnny's daughter] Rosanne or someone else - that they just couldn't take the fact that it was an adulterous affair...even though they had been adulterers, too! [Laughs.]
Maybe that's why.
Yeah, that's probably it. It was too close to the bone or something. But theirs was a pretty great family: I got to know Rosanne later, and she's fabulous, too.